[NSFW] Piss related tags

LightningBolt
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Emo siren
A warning that no images in this thread will be spoilered, so I hope your filter is set up properly!

Okay, so, on Derpi, piss has no set rating, so I gathered up images that can fall under all of them, and I'll showcase them, and explain why, and then define piss related tags so all of them can get descriptions and I would appreciate some help with the ratings and definitions too.

I want to note right here that the catch-all tag for all of this is urine and NOT watersports as the latter is for all sexual and fetish related piss. Watersports will never be safe or suggestive, and it does not even really need to be tagged as all sexual piss acts imply it.

~~~~~

Wetting

Short Description:
Urinating into clothes.

Detailed Description:
The act of a character urinating into their own clothes or on themselves. Often involuntarily. Often but doesn't always include active pissing.


Safe examples:

I feel like these apply okay to safe because they are minimally detailed, show off nothing even remotely sexual or nude, and are not over the top or too fetishized. Feel free to debate these points tho!

Suggestive examples:

I feel these all apply to suggestive as they have more detail/urine than the above and lean more fetishy, one of them having heavier omorashi elements. They still don't show any nudity or genitalia hints.

Questionable examples:

I feel these are all questionable because they either show off genital bulges through clothes or unarounsed nudity and are more fetishized.

Explicit examples:

I only have one explicit example that I didn't think applied to anything lower as that is a clear erection and more touching. it's hard to get wetting to be anything explicit as it's fairly tame.

See also bedwetting.

Several of these have omorashi elements, and right now omorashi implies depseration and I am unsure if those should be aliased or not, the former implies the latter on Derpi too.

Short Description: (Omorashi)
Japanese word for "Desperation from a full bladder".

Long Description:
Desperation from the full bladder, often accompanied but not always with wetting. Does not always involve urine.


I have no examples for omorashi without urine as of now, but it can happen too.


~~~~~

Pissing

Short Description:
The act of urination.

Long Description:
???


Pissing can only be safe or suggestive if it's obscured or clothes minimal wetting.

Questionable examples:

These are questionable because they show non-sexual nudity. These are also not wetting or watersports as it isn't pissing on anyone or done out of arousal.

Explicit examples:

Once again, just one explicit example as I wasn't sure how else to classify it. That's a very serious erection and canines don't tend to expose their penis when they piss, so this shows clear arousal.


~~~~~

Peegasm


Short Description:
???

Long Description:
???


Explicit examples:


I've never been too sure what this tag means, so if someone could help me define it, I'd be happy.


~~~~~

Golden Shower

Short Description:
Urinating onto another character.

Long Description:
???


Explicit examples:

This can only be rated explicit as it is a sexual fetish act. It implies watersports as a result.


~~~~~

Pissing On Self

Short Description:
Urinating onto themself.

Long Description:
???


Explicit examples:

This can only be rated explicit as it is a sexual fetish act. It implies watersports as a result.

Well, idk, maybe it can be questionable, but there are no examples here as of yet.

~~~~~

Piss Drinking

Short Description:
Urinating into a mouth.

Long Description:
???


Explicit examples:

This can only be rated explicit as it is a sexual fetish act. It implies watersports as a result.

Only time I could think of it being questionable is it there are no genitals or arousal shown, but that is unlikely.

See also pissing in own mouth.


~~~~~

Pissing Inside

Short Description:
Urinating into another character's anus or vagina.

Long Description:
???


Explicit examples:

This can only be rated explicit as it is a sexual fetish act. It implies watersports as a result.


~~~~~

Misc

Pissing On The Floor

Pee Accident

Pissing In The Shower


~~~~~

Many of these tags need aliases added, maybe some renames, some better descriptions and examples, and more.

Let me know if I missed anything and also feedback and stuff. Please don't fuck with any tags before discussing them first!

Only piss right now, I'll get to other things another day.
PwnyPony
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Shy Fur
On Peegasm

My guess is that peegasm is supposed to be used for pissing pics where the pisser is clearly having an orgasmic responce shown on their face as they are pissing.

in short it would be
Charecter clearly getting heightened sexual pleasure from the act of urinating.

Pretty sure this would always fall under explicit.
Wingbeat
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I feel like this all makes sense, but where you're going to have the most trouble is in people thinking something is watersports because it's a little fetish-y (like wetting, especially in combination with omorashi).

Do you think you could elaborate on that difference just a little more?

That is, clarify that omorashi is its own fetish but not automatically explicit, just as morbidly obese is a fetish that typically gets the questionable rating, or however you're making the distinction
LightningBolt
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@Wingbeat
I tried to minimize the confusion by making it so no one has to specifically add the tag themselves. If someone is adding the tag manually, they probably messed up.

Now if only I could actually get that to come across…
Wingbeat
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@LightningBolt
Here are the real big takeaways that I think need to come across:

1. Not all urine-related fetishes are tagged watersports.
2. Some urine-related fetish tags imply watersports, and are never safe or suggestive.
2. What follows are several urine-related tags and how the ratings break down within each tag.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of detail on the reasoning behind the rating breakdowns and not a clear list of those 3 points first. I think your OP would be better off broken into two sections: First, the list of tags you're covering (and which ones imply watersports + what the minimum rating is), then the detailed examples.

As it stands, omorashi is the most confusing tag on the list and might be a candidate for aliasing to full bladder or the like, and I personally (and unofficially) disagree with wetting starting at safe for anything other than a wet diaper on a baby (which I know I have to specify because I know adult diapers are also a thing).
LightningBolt
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@Wingbeat
Fair point, not sure how to detail that properly, but I think perhaps moving some stuff around and adding bulletpoints will help.

For omorashi, just mainly following how Derpi does it right now, and the fetish name as it is most known, damn weeb words.

I'll say that safe wetting will be rare in general to begin with, tho I'm just saying that as a cop-out really.
CrystalLord
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I'm responding here at the request of LightningBolt.

So, a few things:


1. I would normally define "watersports" as any Urolagnia/Urophilia. As far as I have ever heard of the term, "watersports" is just slang for urolagnia. This would include urine for any sexual pleasure. Hell, I've met people who consider holding your bladder is watersports. If you're going to define it as something besides urolagnia, fine. But you will confuse people (and this did confuse me heavily). The restricted definition you are going with here is not one I'm personally familiar with, and I believe will hurt your cause to label this correctly.


2. We aren't Derpi, but Derpibooru absolutely does classify some of these as watersports. Examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. At the time of this writing, there are 1103 wetting entries on derpi, and of those, 483 are also tagged watersports (43.7%). The cases that are tagged as both pretty frequently hit even the "safe" image representations you have here.


3. I personally would at least mark all of these to at least questionable. I honestly cannot imagine ever safe wetting. On Derpibooru, there's a total of 8 wetting && safe entries, and arguably I would say they also don't meet the safe criteria to me personally. That's 0.7% safe.



This isn't Derpibooru, but to me all of these would absolutely be urolagnia, and at the very least, none of these should be safe. These are all just straight up pornography to me, just with variable amounts of genitals shown in. I saw these with my SFW only filter, and immediately assumed they were a tagging mistake, and corrected them in accordance to the current rating guidelines (and the definition of watersports specified by the tag at this time).
Wingbeat
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@CrystalLord
To be honest, I'm with you on that. The only situations in which I could see urine and safe co-existing on an image would be: wet diapers in a non-sexual context, which would otherwise bump the rating into rule #5 territory, or urination that's totally obscured. Neither of which have examples provided here. And tbh I'm not even sure the first would be allowed here.

Were it up to me to rate these, all of the examples pictured would be questionable at minimum, and only move to explicit if there's visible arousal or more than one character involved, eg. a sexual act.
CrystalLord
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@Wingbeat

I agree 100%. That was the rating system I went with when I went around changing the tags. These should all be questionable at least, with a few being explicit.

It's just weird for me to see porn when I want SFW stuff. Above all, I would really reconsider the rating tags, because even by the current tagging guidelines, all of these would be at least questionable. If we're changing the tagging guidelines such that sexual urination is safe, I would really have to wonder what safe means then.
LightningBolt
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Note that Derpi rules have a lot of piss at suggestive and if this site is being kinder on nudity then why not be kinder to fetishes? it makes no sense to say that breasts are suggestive and piss is questionable, even if it's a tiny implied stream.
Wingbeat
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I think depictions of urine fall roughly into two categories: crude humor, and sexual undertones. There's overlap for sure, but the jump from "none at all" to "fetish" leaves very little that's exclusively in the first category…and pretty much none of that involves nudity at all.

I have no problem with the default position being sex-positive but vanilla, where the most you'll get in the suggestive rating is references to kinks. Bondage gear on display, etc… but you get into the kink itself and put that gear on a character, and it becomes a lot harder to argue you're only "referencing" it anymore.
CrystalLord
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@LightningBolt

Note that Derpi rules have a lot of piss at suggestive and if this site is being kinder on nudity then why not be kinder to fetishes? it makes no sense to say that breasts are suggestive and piss is questionable, even if it's a tiny implied stream.


I wasn't under the impression that we're being kinder to nudity per se. I was more under the impression that the bar for "explicit" or "questionable" was higher. Not the bar for "suggestive". Based on the guidelines, the "safe" rating is still for non-sexual things only.

I don't personally care whether it's a lot of piss or two drops, just as I don't care whether it's a flood of cum or two drops. Those are still both NSFW in my eyes. Implied urination is a different story, and I would be completely fine with that being "suggestive" personally, just like how massive hyper boobs can be "suggestive" here.

I also have no problem being sex-positive, but the people who want to be SFW only should be allowed to be SFW only. Ace people exist, and they shouldn't be forced to look at all my weird "safe" porn, ya know?

If we're going to put pissing fetish work in the "safe" category, then maybe make a new public filter for actual safe content that filters out all the "safe" vore, "safe" bondage, and so on. A lot of these things don't require nudity to be purely masturbation material. There's a reason Derpi marks nearly all "mawshots" as suggestive or questionable—cus that's just porn.

Most of the pony fetish clop I've drawn in my life has had no nudity, but I absolutely made that clop with the intention of giving the client something to jerk it to.

I think depictions of urine fall roughly into two categories: crude humor, and sexual undertones. There's overlap for sure, but the jump from "none at all" to "fetish" leaves very little that's exclusively in the first category…and pretty much none of that involves nudity at all.


As for crude humour stuff—yes that probably could get tagged as safe in a lot of cases. Fair enough! However, none of the original images in my eyes are about crude humour.


—-

If we're going to compromise, I'll be fine with a compromise for "suggestive", but then I would recommend modifying the existing guidelines of suggestive to be clear that "sexual urination" is only suggestive.
LightningBolt
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[bq]
@LightningBolt
I also have no problem being sex-positive, but the people who want to be SFW only should be allowed to be SFW only. Ace people exist, and they shouldn't be forced to look at all my weird "safe" porn, ya know?

People can and should also hide fetishes they dislike too instead of relying solely on ratings to do their jobs for them. many fetishes are largely SFW and may still be a turn-off.

If we're going to put pissing fetish work in the "safe" category, then maybe make a new public filter for actual safe content that filters out all the "safe" vore, "safe" bondage, and so on. A lot of these things don't require nudity to be purely masturbation material. There's a reason Derpi marks nearly all "mawshots" as suggestive or questionable—cus that's just porn.

That's a bit silly.

Most of the pony fetish clop I've drawn in my life has had no nudity, but I absolutely made that clop with the intention of giving the client something to jerk it to.

Well, of course, many people don't need nudity to get off, and some can get off to safe stuff, but that doesn't make something inherently a higher rating as a result of people getting off to it. I can get off to people just talking casually and using the toilet, doesn't mean that topic is now porn.

If we're going to compromise, I'll be fine with a compromise for "suggestive", but then I would recommend modifying the existing guidelines of suggestive to be clear that "sexual urination" is only suggestive.

I'm not sure where the line between non-sexual and sexual pissing is beyond what I tried to define.
CrystalLord
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It's not about what's a turn off—I couldn't care less what's a turn off for some people and not others. That's what filters are for.

However, you seem to be under the impression that there aren't purely SFW browsers of furbooru or derpibooru. These aren't people who are turned on, or what to be turned on. If they just wanted furry porn, there's e621. I'm not personally here for the furry porn.

My personal position is that by definition, paraphilias (of which fetishes are a subset of) would fundamentally be NSFW, by definition. NSFW then implies NOT safe (but could be suggestive, questionable, explicit, grimdark, etc). Obviously, everyone's workplace is different, but my general barometer would be "would I get rejected/fired if I sent this to my friends, family, or boss?". I have at times sent cute ponies to all three from Derpibooru—never personally had a problem.

This is obviously anecdotal, and NOT what Furbooru's policy should be, but… In all places that I have ever moderated where the team bans "Not Safe For Work" content, we just outright ban anything that would reference one of the below (a small excerpt from a list of banned fetishes from an online artist group I've helped run for about 8 years now):

* urophilia/urolagnia
* vorarephilia
* podophilia
* dendrophilia
* necrophilia
* mysophilia
* autogynephilia
* autoerotic asphyxiation
* coprophilia
* paraphilic infantilism
* eproctophilia
* emetophilia
* forniphilia
* feederism
* macrophilia (sometimes could get through the mod wall)
* microphilia (also sometimes could get through the mod wall)
* zoophilia
* menophilia
* mucophilia
* you get the deal…

Making a filter which blocks all hundreds of fetishes is silly and impractical. So my opinion would be to have them not be part of safe, or just give them a fetish tag or something. Just make a way for those SFW people to just block all of the fetish work. Or we just give up the pretense of safe entirely, because containing fetish work is not safe.

Of course, how does one know it's a fetish piece versus just some crude humour when it's not got any nudity or genitals? Usually I've seen it done based off artist intent, and that's worked pretty okay for me for years.
LightningBolt
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Emo siren
[bq]
It's not about what's a turn off—I couldn't care less what's a turn off for some people and not others. That's what filters are for.

However, you seem to be under the impression that there aren't purely SFW browsers of furbooru or derpibooru. These aren't people who are turned on, or what to be turned on. If they just wanted furry porn, there's e621. I'm not personally here for the furry porn.

Oh, I'm not under tthat impression at all. I'm just trying to find out the lines between safe and unsafe piss and I'm okay with things being decdied to be rated higher in the end, I just want to find those lines. I also don't want to be stricter than Derpi when it comes to fetishes if we are less strict on nudity as it feels unfair.

Making a filter which blocks all hundreds of fetishes is silly and impractical. So my opinion would be to have them not be part of safe, or just give them a fetish tag or something. Just make a way for those SFW people to just block all of the fetish work. Or we just give up the pretense of safe entirely, because containing fetish work is not safe.

There is a fetish tag on Derpi but I don't this is a good solution to things.

Of course, how does one know it's a fetish piece versus just some crude humour when it's not got any nudity or genitals? Usually I've seen it done based off artist intent, and that's worked pretty okay for me for years.

That's always hard to tell, yeah.
CrystalLord
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Cool. I guess we're somewhat on the same page then, and I think I've made my opinion clear. I'm not going to really hammer my point.

Have you talked to Torvusil about this? He's another big tag guru from Derpibooru and an old Reddit art mod.

I noticed he rated some of your safe tagged above things as suggestive, so you'll also want to chat to him about piss ratings. Because chances are he'll also correct anything "piss" to "suggestive" or higher in the future.

I doubt he has that much differing opinions about this than me, but I would appreciate his input as I would consider him an expert on this matter given how much artwork classification the guy goes through every day.
Wingbeat
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Some questions to ponder, then:
Is the contextual difference between wetting out of fear and wetting out of desperation significant enough to make the difference in tagging?
Would incontinence for baby/kid characters even fly with Rule #5, leaving the only remaining examples among mature characters and references to the act?
Are there any circumstances, non-sexual or otherwise, where we would want urine showing up unspoilered in the default filter?
CrystalLord
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Optimising for Gay
Are there any circumstances, non-sexual or otherwise, where we would want urine showing up unspoilered in the default filter?



That's a great question, and I want to say… tentative yes? I can't think of anything personally, but I do believe there is some line.

This makes me think of the garden fountains where a statue of a boy is pissing into a bowl (yes that's an image of it). It's a classic image. If we depicted that here but with a furry child, is that safe? Is that cub yiff? Foalcon? Lolicon?

I honestly have no idea. I would personally lean towards safe, but it really depends on the intent of the artist in this case.
CruFox
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@CrystalLord
Are there any circumstances, non-sexual or otherwise, where we would want urine showing up unspoilered in the default filter?



That's a great question, and I want to say… tentative yes? I can't think of anything personally, but I do believe there is some line.

There was this example given in some other thread about ratings: https://youtu.be/JHf66fDl3lI (starts at about 2:00)

There is a character urinating here and the movie is rated PG. But it doesn't show urine on the character. I don't think urine on a character should ever be safe.
Wingbeat
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@CruFox
I don't think urine on a character should ever be safe.


I was thinking of where I'd draw the line, and that sums up all of these scenarios nicely:
1. out-of-view urination (like the angry birds clip) — okay. urination with visible genitals — not okay.
2. puddle on ground — okay. Puddle on ground directly under character (like this cutscene ) — not okay.
3. used diaper, not being worn, with no visible urine — tentatively okay. Wet diaper being worn or clothes wetting — not okay.

I'm not 100% on what "okay" actually means in terms of ratings here for each example, but it is at least the difference between safe/suggestive and questionable/explicit.
Anonymous #637D
This looks Suggestive to me, with all the blushing and emphasis, seems sexualized just like the Braixen example:


This looks completely Safe, and I don't think should be tagged watersports:


On peegasm, I recommend not making it auto-Explicit, because stimulation of the vargus nerve to induce a euphoric state is common kids show fare. It shouldn't affect the rating at all unless they seem to actually be having a real orgasm in my opinion.
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