Concerning Rule Changes on Banning Human on Feral Porn.

Gyro
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The site administration has seen fit to ban human on feral porn with irl creatures where the image does not explicitly make the viewer aware that the feral in question is indeed sapient.
 
Rules
Do not upload life-like imagery depicting a human and a non-sapient animal/animal-like character (which would warrant the lifelike feral tag) that appear to be engaging in sexually explicit scenarios between each other.
 
The lifelike feral tag describes itself as:
Real life animals depicted realistically in art without giving them sapience.
 
The administration further goes on to clarify in the discord that:
lifelike feral tag is added to irl animals being portraited, fidelity to realism is not a requirement so much as theme
 
This would mean any IRL ferals, with natural color schemes who do not, in the image explicitly display sapience through expression or speech would be removed from the site. Because fidelity to realism isnt a requirement, this means that Disney eyes and other cartoony characteristics would not be proof, because those are by definition style choices.
 
———————————–END BASIC DESCRIPTION––––––––––––––––––––
 
I would like to submit that this itself is not really an enforceable distinction. How do you tell that a feral lion is sapient in most images?
 
Which of the following is safe to fuck?
full
full
full
full
 
If you guessed all but the last one, you’re right! It is based off of a regular feral lion by a non furry artist. The cartoony eyes are a style choice, the rest is just a neutral expresson. The other 3 are fursonas that have sapience.
 
Additionally, mythological creatures get a pass. So the following would not be safe to fuck.
 
 
Now…what happens if we discover that jackaolope actually are real and nonsapeint?  
Would we take the absurd route of NSFW art with >>24715 suddenly being banned, despite the day before being allowed all hunky dory?  
Or would we take the incosistent route of saying, “Well, they werent real animals before, and therefor our criteria isnt really ‘real life animals’ but just what we thought were real when we made that delcaration.”  
There’s no middle ground on that above.
 
Therefore, I think that this is entirely unenforceable, a can of worms, and somethign that should be rolled back.
Teaspoon
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In light of the most recent twitter outrage
Making uninformed accusations is not a great way to start a thread.
dream
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Personally I don’t have an issue with the rule and its intended purpose, but I think it is a bit unclear like you’re saying.
Teaspoon
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@Gyro  
Disclaimer: I am not an admin, I just upload and prod tags.
 
Bestiality is illegal where the site is hosted, and like in the case of lolicon etc., the legal wording surrounding it is not 100% clear enough on whether it applies to only IRL animals or may also apply to “things that look real enough”.
 
I was not part of any discussion about the change, but as far as I’m aware most of the staff weren’t even aware art of this nature (human x realistic looking animal) was remotely popular or had a reason to check up on its legality.
 
In the event jackelopes turn out to be real I’m sure there’ll be some discussion on what to do with the dearth of images depicting relations of a human with a feral non-sapient looking jackalope.
Anonymous #EA4B
Which of the following is safe to fuck?
 
I’m not one to judge, but trying to fuck a lion does not seem like a safe idea overall.
Gyro
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@Teaspoon  
My point was that such a question cannot be answered in a manner that is neither absurd nor contradictory. And as such this is not a good distinction. The distinction, if we were to make it, is to say that irl/not doesnt matter. All that matters is sapience. And at that rate, well…again, you cant tell lack of sapience from an image, especially in realm of furry art.
CruFox
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Bestiality is illegal where the site is hosted, and like in the case of lolicon etc., the legal wording surrounding it is not 100% clear enough on whether it applies to only IRL animals or may also apply to “things that look real enough”.
 
That’s not a valid argument unless you quote the exact law regarding this issue. I am pretty sure that no country on Earth has a law that mentions sapience of animals in their laws, so going by that logic even sapient animals might be banned, MLP characters included. I bet the law is only meant for irl stuff - this is the reason why there are specific laws that ban explicit art with underage human characters, because “normal” laws used to not cover those situations.
Teaspoon
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@Gyro  
@CruFox  
I have seen this song and dance play out before and I know for myself I’m not willing to waste any more of my life over it, and I don’t believe the admins are too eager to do so either. You can either care about the legal safety of the people that operate the site by allowing them to play it safe and avoid overzealous prosecutors, or you can prioritize a hyper-obscure fetish and admit you don’t care if real people are sent to prison and the site shut down over it.
Gyro
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A healthy compromise might be to remove the ‘real life animal’ on any explicit image that might be tagged such. Always rule that animals in explicit situations have enough sapience to be aware.
Gyro
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@Teaspoon  
I mean, we’re violating a shit ton of copyright with this site itself. If someone wanted to go after this site. Or the host could get hit with a meteor. Or a supervolcano could erupt and destroy all the data.
 
The expected risk of such a thing is so infintesimal as to not be considered. Otherwise we can scare monger with all sorts of hyper implausible scenarios.
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Copied from Discord:
 
Non sapient realistic depiction of animal fucking with human is not ok by the rule. Sapience can be easily judged and the rule likely applies only to animals being fucked that appear to either be struggling or show complete indifference and just stand there on all fours
 
So, this is ok:  
Realistic looking animal in cowgirl position fucking with a human dude, since that position requires deliberate effort and willingness
 
However this is not ok:  
Realistic Animal standing on all fours and just taking it without showing any intelligence or having any facial expression other than complete indifference
Zuthal
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Since in basically all jurisdictions “innocent unless proven guilty” is a core maxim of the legal system, the inherent ambiguity in feral art should be an advantage - as long as the artist claims that the animal in question is sapient, or makes no claim either way, it is basically impossible to prove that a situation that would be called bestiality is present.
 
And aside from any legal discussions, I do not think art should be policed in general. It is fictional, with no involvement of, and thus no harm to, real-life animals (or humans, in case of e.g. snuff art or noncon content that depicts things that would be illegal to do to IRL humans). Of course stupid laws exist, but those laws should be changed - and what should definitely not be done is assuming the law represents any form of morality.
Gyro
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@Luna  
Honestly struggling or complete indifference is a threshold I could probably agree to. I cant imagine the amount of human on sapient feral noncon that also includes no other indication of sapience is terribly high.
 
That said, I’m not an expert on the field, this isn’t really my thing xP
 
I just mostly hate this idea of legislating sapience of someone’s character.
Anonymous #EA4B
as long as the artist claims that the animal in question is sapient
 
“She’s actually an immortal goddess as old as the universe itself, she merely looks six” - common excuse to why it’s definitely not lolicon
Teaspoon
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@CruFox  
Derpi is hosted in a different country where the law only cares about the animal itself. Where Furb is hosted, the law also concerns storage and transmission of images where “lewd acts” are practiced with an animal or apparent animal. An overzealous prosecutor, or one simply acting on report spam, can have the site shuttered pending investigation based on an intentional bad reading of the law; “innocent until proven guilty” doesn’t exclude one’s life being destroyed.
 
Thankfully even the most obtuse interpretation would exclude 99% of drawn images where a human and a feral are drawn together as most intend to show them as persons rather than beasts. The 1% requires a rule in place to avoid the inevitable complaints of “why was this image removed” down the line.
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@Anonymous #EA4B  
Leaving aside that art should just not be policed period, with that there is at least in a lot of cases (the ones where the body is that of an actual child, rather than an adolescent) an easy way to tell the “truth”. With sapient vs nonsapient ferals, there are a lot of cases where you cannot tell - is a picture of a horse railing a human a sapient horse, or a nonsapient one just following its instincts?
 
@Teaspoon  
Even if all feral art was banned, some malicious actor could, as Gyro said, nail this site on copyright grounds alone.
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@Zuthal  
Here is a Wikipedia article that is illustrated with a lot of human x animal explicit art:  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia  
If it was illegal then it would not be there.
 
@Anonymous #EA4B  
That’s something else entirely, because in the case of deciding whether a character is sapient or non-sapient you just have to add a speech bubble to indicate that it can talk and then it would appear sapient.  
full  
You can’t do that with apparent age.
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And aside from any legal discussions, I do not think art should be policed in general. It is fictional, with no involvement of, and thus no harm to, real-life animals
 
This is a common argument against banning loli, to which I say okay let me draw YOU in a way you won’t appreciate and say “but it’s just a drawing, no harm done eks de”
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@Luna
 
If you did it knowing it would upset me, and posted it on this site with intent to upset me, I believe that would fall afoul of Rule #0, regardless of the specific content of the art.
 
If you want to make an argument, actually make a comparison that is similar to the topic which is being discussed.
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