[NSFW] "anthro on feral", "anthro penetrating X", male penetrating Y type tags

On e621 there are currently many tags used to specify what is the gender and type of the character that is penetrating and what is the gender and type of the character that is being penetrated and also which of the types and genders are in what place (important for group sex images, where just specifying who is doing what is not enough without telling with whom). Here it is worth noting that meaning of “penetration” on e621 is:
 

 
https://e621.net/wiki_pages/1043
 
The existing groups of tags are:
 
To determine what two types of characters are having sex (^{please note that on e621 there are no separate tags for e.g. anthro on feral and feral on anthro, other tags are used to precise who is “on top”})
 
anthro_on_anthro  
anthro_on_feral  
anthro_on_taur  
feral_on_feral  
human_on_anthro  
humanoid_on_anthro
 
And all the other combinations of <Form> on <Form>.
 
To determine character of what type is the one penetrated:
 
anthro_penetrated  
feral_penetrated  
human_penetrated  
humanoid_penetrated  
taur_penetrated
 
To determine character of what type is the one penetrating:
 
anthro_penetrating  
feral_penetrating  
human_penetrating  
humanoid_penetrating  
taur_penetrating
 
To determine character of what type is penetrating character of what type:
 
anthro_penetrating_anthro  
anthro_penetrating_feral  
anthro_penetrating_human  
anthro_penetrating_humanoid  
anthro_penetrating_taur
 
and every other combination of <Form> penetrating <Form> where <Form> is anthro, feral, human, humanoid or taur
 
Then similar tags but which specify gender:
 
ambiguous_penetrating  
female_penetrating  
intersex_penetrating  
*andromorph_penetrating  
*gynomorph_penetrating  
*herm_penetrating  
*maleherm_penetrating  
male_penetrating
 
male_penetrating_ambiguous  
male_penetrating_female  
male_penetrating_intersex  
*male_penetrating_andromorph  
*male_penetrating_gynomorph  
*male_penetrating_herm  
*male_penetrating_maleherm  
male_penetrating_male
 
and every other combination of <Gender> penetrating <Gender> where <Gender> is ambiguous, male, female, intersex, andromorph, gynomorph, herm or maleherm
 
I took most of those from this page on e621. But this is not the complete list, there are also tags of the type <Gender> on <Form> (part of them listed can be found on this page on e621)
 
Is there intent to use such tags here? As I stated on the begging, such a variety of tags is important for group sex images, but then on Derpibooru the tags regarding this subject are oragnised differently, for example from the descpriton of “anal”:
 

 
So what would be all “anal penetartion” on e621 is either “anal” or “anal insertion” on Derpibooru which complicates things a bit.

Hey!
 
Furbooru praises simplicity on it’s tagging system and always will favour root tags to avoid over-specifying and redundancy.
 
None of the tags mentioned above seems applicable to this site given you can still achieve the same searching, filtering and watching results combining said root tags.
 
Eg. vaginal, sex, cat, wolf, anthro, feral would be enough to describe that there is vaginal sex between a cat and wolf, and anthro x feral action.
 
Therefore at least for now these tags are rejected.
 
We appreciate your comprehension.
 
Cheers!

@Fleetfoot  

 
No, it’s not possible to achieve the same results without even “anthro on feral” type tags.
 
Example 1)
 

 
This post has “vaginal, anthro, feral, sex, tiger, chicken, cat” but from the tags it can’t be determined if the sex is between two ferals and an anthro is just looking or between a feral and anthro and the other anthro is just looking or between two anthros and a feral is just looking (which is the case).
 
Example 2)
 
 

 
This is a comic where on page 1 two feral dragons are having vaginal sex and a group of male kobolds is just watching, but on the page 3 there is no feral on feral sex, just anthro on feral sex between anthro kobolds and feral dragons. They are both tagged as “sex, kobold, dragon, feral, anthro”
 
Sure, the tags are a bit different, because the first one had “vaginal” and the second one has “oral”, but if only on the page 3 the anthro kobold that is having oral sex with the female feral dragon was having vaginal sex with her instead of oral, and the kobold that is having oral sex with the male dragon wouldn’t be doing that, then the tags regarding this would be identical between those images. Or if the anthro kobolds were having oral sex between each other on the page 1 and one of them would be having vaginal sex with the feral dragon on the page 3 then both images would have oral, vaginal, sex, kobold, dragon, feral, anthro but the situations wouldn’t be the same
 
Example 3)
 

 
This post has “vaginal, anal, feral, anthro, sex, rabbit, dog” but just from those tags it can’t be determined if the feral is the one penetarting or the one penetrated or both. Swapping places of the feral dog and the anthro dog would change nothing in the tags but that wouldn’t be the same thing. The female rabbit could be a feral instead of the dog (they would be then both anthros) and the tags would be the same.
 
——  
EDIT:
 
Don’t even get me started on this one ;)  

@CruFox  
We do not believe there is a pressing need for more specific tags, we like to keep tagging as simple as it can be. The simpler it is - the better, since it lowers the learning curve, and makes tags a lot less cluttered.
 
I understand what you mean, though, but I personally believe that no tech, no organisation method can be perfect. People can simply use their eyes to judge the content they see in the results, or exclude group sex tags from their searches. Either way, we do want to strike a balance between the level of tag detail, and simplicity. Cluttered tags aren’t any good either, and are a nightmare for both uploaders the moderators to maintain and enforce with little to no actual benefit.
 
There may be tags that correspond to group pictures, orgies, duos, triples, and so on, which may assist people in further narrowing down the content they wish to see.

@Luna  
There have to be at least tags that could easily differientiate between situation of this type:
 

 
and of this type:
 

 
Please note that both of these images are tagged with the same combination of tags: “anthro, feral, dragon, horse, cowgirl position, anal, sex, male x male” and in both there are only two characters, but they are very, very different and it must be possible to filter one from the other.
 
––  
UPDATE:
 
@Luna  

 
e621 has those complicated tags and it’s a very popular site
 

 
If you want it like this then maybe some tags that are considered “too specific” can be hidden by default and only turned on in the options by individual users who know what they are doing and want to have bigger control over their results? From my observation on e621 there is plenty of people adding those specific tags to images.

@CruFox  
Simplicity is better than complexity. When I was still at e621 that was my motive and it’s extremely depressing to see it get overly complex. When you have so many tag sets you run the risk of them being useless unless you CONSTANTLY maintain them with tagging projects. And unlike e6 we don’t support non-staff with bulk tagging tools to help that even be possible.
 
Basically a few great tags are better than 3 dozen tags that only contain a fraction of the content they were looking for.

@Raptorshy
 
I don’t expect all the tags I posted to be implemented. I included them in my post to show what’s already used on e621, website that was aggregating furry art for years. But between some of those overly specific tags there are very basic ones, like just "human on anthro" (28195 posts on e621 tagged with it) or "anthro on feral" (12164 posts on e621 tagged with it). I think those are really basic things, something that large number of furies would use.
 
Or just even look at Derpibooru, how many posts there are:
 

 
Why go backwards and don’t even have tags of the type that are present on Derpibooru (X on Y action)?
 
EDIT: Also - just add a good detailed description to every tag, not like on Derpibooru where there is a lot of tags without even a basic one don’t have them. This will make things easier for users. I am heavily using e621 wiki pages that explains what tags are used where and all that.
 
You go into description of one tag and it gives you information about many similar tags, tags that should not be confused with it and the tags that should be used alongside.
 
No wonder users won’t be tagging things properly when they are not properly explained.

@CruFox  
Because we’re just starting out and that’s an advanced tagging project that will get forgotten about since no posts apply to most of them. Things can develop later if needed but right now this is overly complex for such a young site, and to be frank its hard to get people to tag gender, let alone know the tags for the exact interactions between the characters off the top of their head.
 
anthro_on_anthro  
anthro_on_feral  
anthro_on_taur  
feral_on_feral  
human_on_anthro  
humanoid_on_anthro
 
I’m fine with these. They’re very general, useful, and not a lot to ask of people. Even then I expect most things might not even be tagged with human, anthro, feral, etc. and I’d rather push for that as a basis for bigger projects first.

@Raptorshy  

 
On safe or suggestive art, going by what I saw on Derpibooru, probably, it can be a problem. But I am talking about explicit posts. From what I observed they are usually properly tagged on Derpibooru. I made a contribution to it by having 18,120 metadata updates, vast majority of them on explicit posts.
 

 
It will be pain in the ass in the future to browse all that art that will accumulate over time and add missing tags to them when somebody in the future finally realize they are needed. I’d rather add them daily starting today. Because in the future somebody can use the argument of “it will be too much work to implement it now” so IMO better to make things right from the begging.

relevant email quote to this website right now
 
`
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Till Kamppeter wrote:
>
> Frederic told that the options from the PPD file are intentionally mot
> listed in the printing dialog, the usability team of GNOME was against
> listing these options. They clutter the dialog and can be more confusing
> than useful to the user.

I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE.

This “users are idiots, and are confused by functionality” mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don’t use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn’t do what I need it to do.

Please, just tell people to use KDE.

	Linus

`

@CruFox  
If this is a flexing contest, I’ll tell you that I have 250,000 tag updates on e6 and organized dozens of large tag sets, making massive changes to how tags operate and function. And I can tell what works and what doesn’t work. I don’t mind a complex system as long as it doesn’t get to stupid levels, but you crawl before you walk.

@Raptorshy  
I tagged so much on e621 in 2010 I got a privilaged level, and I created and propagated a lot of tags on Derpi over the years.

@CruFox  
Hey
 
Don’t get us wrong, we do appreciate the feedback and suggestions but there’s balancing we’re trying to achieve, it doesn’t mean we’re against complex schemes it just means we’re praising the user experience across the board for others.
 
Intuitive systems are desired, but we’re also not going full simplistic in here, the following tags are approved:
 
anthro on anthro  
anthro on feral  
anthro on taur  
feral on feral  
human on anthro
 
Now what we kindly ask you is that if you could add these tags properly to existing images (any user can create a tag) and once they are all present on at least one image you link them back to us for implications and descriptions addition.
 
We appreciate the help and comprehension.
 
Cheers!

@Fleetfoot  

 
I’m glad to hear at least that is accepted. But I can see that you took only the ones I written down in my first post in this thread, but actually that list was just an example I copied from somewhere on e621 and those are not in the order of importance. For example “anthro on taur” has only 409 posts on e621. There is a tag human on feral that has 22814 posts tagged with it on e621 so it’s more important to have that.

@CruFox  
I support human on feral too.

@Raptorshy  
Same.
 
I also inadverdatly made a ‘pokephilia’ tag the other that should probaby be aliased into ‘human on pokemon’ to keep consistancy. provided it wasn’t already nuked from orbit, I didn’t check.

@Raptorshy  
Yes agreed.

@Fleetfoot
 

 
 
anthro on anthro  
should imply anthro
 
anthro on feral  
should imply anthro, feral
 
anthro on taur  
should imply anthro, taur
 
feral on feral  
should imply feral
 
human on anthro  
should imply human, anthro, interspecies
 
human on feral  
should imply human, feral, interspecies

@CruFox  
Implications added [: